Staking & Games of Chance Controversy

2004Scape
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Possibly an unpopular opinion, but it is my opinion…

I’ve been playing Runescape since 2004 on and off, I’ve also been in the private sever scene since Moparscape, and I truly feel like staking and gambling are honestly some of the worst parts of this game. Every time I’ve seen issues pop up in private servers, it’s almost always connected to staking, gambling, or real world trading. Sure there’s a argument that you can “RWT” gathering resources like Nats, logs, ore, etc… but truly this isn’t my main point.

The issue is, conflicts seem to generlaly trace back to those systems (Games of chance). And when people say things like “oh, it’s just for fun” or “it gives me a rush,” I feel like they’re not fully seeing it for what it is. That “rush” they’re talking about is more like the addictive feeling that comes with high-risk behavior. It’s not excitement in a healthy way, it’s more like an unhealthy pull to keep going, even when you know it’s probably not gonna end well. And to bring up the argument that this server is supposed to be like it was back in 2004, yeah, staking was in the game back then, and sure, things like pooling or flower poker or whatever forms of gambling existed too. They weren’t officially banned until sometime in the 2010s, if I remember right (Gambling that is). But just because they were around doesn’t mean they were good for the game. The rules back then weren’t perfect either, a lot of stuff was handled at Jagex’s discretion, and even they were still figuring things out. So using “it was in the game back then” as a reason to keep it now doesn’t really hold up, especially when we’ve seen how damaging it can be. I can’t speak for the developers, but I’m sure their original intention on keeping things like they were in 2004 was more directed to the code of the game and not the “made up rules of the game”.

Now, when servers allow these types of things, it typically turns into a toxic mess really fast. People stop caring about the actual game and just chase the fastest way to get rich, whether it’s through luck, exploits, or real money. It completely ruins the vibe for players who actually want to grind, explore, or enjoy the game for what it is. It’s like, the second staking or gambling becomes a main feature, everything starts falling apart, economy gets destroyed, scams go through the roof, and legit players either quit or just get drowned out. I don’t think this stuff belongs in the game, and I’ve honestly never seen it bring anything good to a server in the long run.

Just my two cents

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Based on how few people stake just have someone review every stake worth more then 1m. Even with 3k players I can’t see this being over whelming to do. Since nobody stakes.
I don’t think it should be content being pushed by content creators who “care about the game” but you can’t enforce that. I just can’t say or see in ANYWAY you care about the game if you’re endorsing gambling the 99.99% reason people quit and don’t log back on.

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I don’t think it’s unreasonable to place restrictions on the Duel Arena when the server has also banned (unofficial) gambling. Both were not an issue in original 2004 Runescape, and weren’t until far later on; that’s why they didn’t need to be addressed. Preemptively taking measures will help to prevent similar outcomes seen in the main game. Of course, there will be those complaining of authenticity, but it’s ultimately for the greater good+integrity of the game. Staking wasn’t intended to be a defining aspect of one’s gameplay nor one rampant with scamming and RWT.

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As the population increases it will become less feasible to try to micro manage the duel arena. Work on updates. Stop rwiters. Then keep in mind the devs like to play as well.

The reaon it was not addressed before early on was simple. They were busy dealing with a huge population boom. Botters and rwiters. Thats why it was not a priority until later on. That and game updates. So they got player mods and forum mods to help donate their time to try to fill in the gaps. But even with all that Jagex struggled hard. So i can understand the current team trying to stop it before it becomes a problem as they have the hindsight jagex did not have.

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i will never accept the fact of people just pooling funds or just giving streamers gold. ruins the hard work and progress you need to put into your characters.

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So does having friends or family members who are wealthy in-game and want to boost you. So does being a highly effective mercher who can make millions of GP per hour trading. Being a good socialite (in the case of being a popular streamer who people like enough to donate gold to) or a good staker or gambler (enough to increase your winrate and gain an edge over your opponents to win more) is just another part of playing the game to get ahead. I don’t think your argument is sufficient to de-legitimize it when it was permitted in 2004.

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You said that real-world trading generally ties back to games of chance, but you didn’t present much in the way of evidence for that. There are plenty of players who may utilize real-world trading simply for the sake of improving their character’s stats, or acquiring better equipment so they can engage with parts of the game that aren’t gambling-related.

You argue that the rush and excitement simply comes from the risk-taking behavior of gambling, and cite gambling’s addictiveness as something bad. RuneScape itself, however, even outside staking itself, is clearly designed to be a classic Skinnerbox, utilizing principles of operant conditioning to keep people hooked. Surely you don’t think RuneScape and this entire server itself should be taken offline just because it’s addictive, do you?

RuneScape’s entire design is based around risk-based excitement. In PvM or quests, there is always a risk of dying to enemies, and thus losing all of your equipped items except the best three. A huge portion of the map (the wilderness) allows players to engage in player-vs-player combat with that same risk, now with potentially very great reward. It’s this risk excitement that keeps many of the game’s players active. In fact, a huge portion of the game’s player-base cares primarily about either PKing or dueling, and it’s primarily that risk-reward feeling that both groups are after. If players are gambling because they are addicted, why is that any more problematic than players being addicted to PKing, or even just being addicted to leveling up their stats?

You suggest that many players simply care about the fastest method to get rich in-game when staking and gambling are legitimized. I would argue this has always been the case. MMO players from their inceptions have always worked to try to acquire more wealth or power than other players. That is effectively their entire purpose. I don’t think that players who focus primarily on staking or money-making have stopped caring about the game itself. They simply hold different values than you do. The game is and always has been designed to accommodate many different kinds of players. If you want to do nothing but skilling, never bothering to fight monsters or do PvM, you can. If you hate skilling and only want to PK, that’s an option for you, too. If you just want to do all the quests, that’s a path you can take. If you feel like maxing out all your stats, that’s fine. And if all you care about is maximizing your wealth and staking, then that’s totally legitimate as well.

You said that players trying at all costs to maximize their wealth ruins the “vibe” for players who only care about increasing their stats or improving their characters by other means. I’m curious what this “vibe” is to you. You are never forced to go into the Duel Arena, and you’re never forced to engage with any aspect of gambling within the game. You can continue to play the game as you always had before without staking or gambling ever being a necessary part of it. I think your suggestion that legitimate players are going to get scammed and quit if staking is legitimized is a bit of a slippery slope fallacy. You could just as well argue against free trade as a whole for the same reasons, and presumably next to nobody playing on this server actually wants that.

Now, while I’ve gone through and responded to each of your points, the most important point is this: Staking is allowed in the game, and it seems highly unlikely that the Duel Arena as a whole is ever going to be removed. The historical inaccuracy of removing staking as a whole would be going so far that I could never imagine a server like this wholly banning the practice. The only points of contention are whether or not the server should allow gambling outside of the Duel Arena (flower games, etc.) and whether or not players should be allowed to pool funds for gambling. I don’t think your arguments have directly addressed these points, and instead are arguing against the concept of gambling in RuneScape as a whole. The points you’ve raised kind of lose sight of what’s at stake here, and don’t really address the meat of the discussion relating to the gambling controversy.

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Sounds like gate-keeping.

The game and its mechanics itself should be the basis of the game’s community for authenticity, instead of being molded within that with unnecessary rules based on someone else’s view of “playing the or their game right”.

Considering no real-money is involved with the game and people have the freedom to do what they want outside the game, I don’t like the idea of imposing rules to hinder the dueling community.

Just play the game, stick to communities you vibe with, and stay in your lane :stuck_out_tongue:

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One point I haven’t seen brought up before:

I’ve been into remakes for 10+ years - Projectrs06, RuneRebels, ScapeRune, Darkan, Arios, 2006rebotted, vscape, 2009scape, OpenRSC, Lost City – If you’ve heard of it, I played it. One thing that happens is the economy dies because everyone has everything.

What happens when there’s 5 whips going around for every active player?

Gambling gives something else to go for when you have every item in the game already. You can see this greed as degenerate, but you can also see it as yet another goal.

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You said that real-world trading generally ties back to games of chance, but you didn’t present much in the way of evidence for that. There are plenty of players who may utilize real-world trading simply for the sake of improving their character’s stats, or acquiring better equipment so they can engage with parts of the game that aren’t gambling-related.

Appreciate the response, I wasn’t aiming for a debate, but I don’t mind it either, it helps everyone see both sides of the coin.

Anyways, I’ve seen the pattern repeat itself many times, and once these types of player ran activities gets out of hand, everything starts heading downhill. And yeah, I get that RWT happens in all sorts of ways, but the worst of it almost always seems tied to games of chance.

About the Skinner box thing, I’m actually really aware of that. I recently finished a research paper on gaming addiction, so I know RuneScape and many other games as a whole plays into those reward loops. But there’s a clear difference between grinding skills, doing PvM or PvP and throwing huge stacks on flower games or trusting someone else to stake your bank.

Also, it’s worth pointing out that nobody’s saying you can’t stake at all. You still can , you just can’t pool or stake using other people’s money. That honestly feels like a reasonable rule to prevent obvious problems. Staking with your own gold is still there, just like it was in 2004. And honestly, that’s probably closer to what the Duel Arena was originally meant for anyway.

And let’s not ignore the bigger issue , a lot of these servers die when the content dries up and gambling becomes the fallback. People finish KBD or whatever’s meta, and suddenly everyone’s either standing around the duel arena or getting caught up in scams. It kills the vibe for people who want to keep playing for the game itself. I’m sure there could be other things to consider regarding this issue.

Another thing to keep in mind, this server isn’t about being some huge online hub or casino. It’s about preserving the code, the experience, the mechanics. The fact that we get to play something this detailed and well-maintained for free is honestly a privilege. No sub fees, no pay-to-win, just passionate work being shared with the community. That alone should remind us to treat it with a little more respect.

Lastly, just to clarify, I wasn’t trying to present this like some academic argument that needs citations or hard data, it was just an opinion based on what I’ve personally seen across years of playing. I know that one person’s experience doesn’t speak for the whole picture, and I could absolutely dive into the research if I felt it was worth the time. But for something like this, a casual discussion on a game server forum, I really didn’t feel the need to build a case file. It was just me sharing a pattern I’ve noticed and a perspective I think is worth considering, not trying to prove some ultimate truth.

But, like I mentioned, I can debate if you’d like, it could be good for controversial topics such as these…

So I’ve got a question. If staking is still allowed as it always was in 2004, and the only restriction now is that you can’t use someone else’s gold or account, then what exactly makes pooling so essential? I get the point about level 3 skillers, pures, or niche accounts struggling to find fair matchups or fully participate in the content, but people who create those kinds of accounts know they come with certain limitations. If fairness is the concern, wouldn’t it make more sense to just stake on your own main or a build that you developed, instead of relying on someone else’s account or gold? Why is it considered okay to bypass the limits of your own account just to gain better odds through someone else’s? Also, considering that games of chance like flower poker were removed due to the risk of abuse and instability, why should pooled staking, which runs on the same kind of unregulated, trust-based system, be treated any differently?

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